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April 19, 2017 4:58 pm  #1


disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

This post was originally made in 2011 and then revived in 2015.  I am bringing it back because, due to my steering arm mod failure I am working on it and one other design.  My plan was to use PBR calipers on my modified spindles but since that fell through I have resurrected this old project. 


Posted by Daze on April 11, 2011, 11:40 am I am thinking of putting Mustang PBR Calipers on Galaxie disc spindles for those of you not familiar with the PBR calipers they came on 99-04 Mustang GT and Cobra cars and are an aluminum body with dual pistons
Anyway I was already going to retrofit a set on to my Mustang and got to thinking they would be a fantastic upgrade for the Gal as well.  currently I have 78 LTD II disc brakes on my 62 and as has been discussed many times those are not always a good choice due to camber issues, any way I am parting out a 72 country squire on Wednesday and the disc brakes are one of the parts I will be taking.  I am think that with these spindles on the bench I should be able to design a way to mate the PBR calipers to the OEM spindles.  More to come as I know more.
 
Posted by Daze on April 16, 2011, 9:34 pm this project is getting closer mocked things up on Thursday and the bracket should be easy.The OEM brakes are a simple enough design but the calipers seam to be a little lacking.   
 The PBR caliper bracket just bairley fits between the steering arm and the uright
Should be sharp looking from the front.
 had the used rotors that came on the spindles turned today and they are almost thin enough to fit inside the PBR calipers.  the PBR rotors start out 1.03" and the country squire rotors were turned down to 1.06" so I think I can over come the .03" by shaving the pads just a touch.
 
Posted by Daze on April 22, 2011, 7:50 pm got the bracket part way done I started by using a piece of 16 gage steel to serve as a spacer between the caliper bracket and the rotor.
 I then used 1/4" X 1.5" X 1.5" angle iron to make the main brackets. 
 The caliper is mounted solidly enough but I still don't like the fact that the 9/16" bolt had to be threaded through the side of the spindle in to to the 1/4" steel of the upper angle iron bracket (there wasn't enough room for a nut or a bolt head)  so I am going to utilize the OEM hole in the spindles and weld a 1/8" plate to the upper bracket and thread the hole in the spindle.  I normally don't like using welds on a bracket like this, but since it is a redundancy to reinforce the threaded bracket I think it will be fine.  Also I don't like the fact that the brackets are two individual pieces so I plan on welding a piece of 1/8" X 1" steel between the two piece of angle iron.  This should help tie everything together and once again simply act as a reinforcement to an already solid system.  thoughts??
 
Posted by jeff hann on April 24, 2011, 12:35 pm, Interesting..... I have those brakes on my '66. They work fine for me, and a little grinding solved the camber issue. Let us know how you like the newer calipers. I might try 'em out too. Thanks for the pics.
 
Posted by JEM on April 24, 2011, 9:03 pm I started putting PBRs on my '64 with '72 spindles...the earlier pad-guided PBRs from an early '90s Z51/ZR1 'Vette. Then I gave up on that and bought a set of Porsche 996 TT calipers. Then I put that on hold because I had to change wheels and the rotors I'd planned on using (Mercedes ML55) wouldn't have enough hat depth to let the calipers clear the new wheels. Now I've pretty much decided to see if I can make a set of Porsche Cayenne calipers and 14in rotors fit, but those calipers are about the size of the Graf Zeppelin and I'm a bit worried about upper control arm clearance. I thought I had a set of Cayenne ZR18 calipers, but the seller suddenly realized he had two rights and no lefts. More as it develops...
 
Posted by Daze on April 25, 2011, 8:38 pm, Getting closer after making some revisions After my original post about my bracketry to attach PBR brackets to some Galaxie spindles I new several things had to be changed. 1. 1/4" angle iron was a little on the thin side2. the two brackets needed to be tied together.3. I needed a second mount on the upper bracket besides where I had threaded the 1/4" angle iron No matter how I sliced it there were there was only room for 1/4" angle at the top mount, but  I think I came up with a solution for all the issues. First I drilled and tapped the body of the spindle so there was a second mount for the upper bracket not just the one through the side of the upright.  Then I took a piece of 1/4" plate and cut it to fit inside the angle iron and doubled the thickness. here is the set up with just the 1/4" angle iron and the new mounting location.
 and here it is with the additional 1/4" plate



by doubling the material I now have a thickness of 1/2"  I realize it will not be as strong as if it was a 1 piece bracket rather than a 3 piece, but it should be comparable to a 3/8" thick bracket. I still need to make some aesthetic changes, but I think I am on the right track. thoughts??

 

Posted by JEM on April 26, 2011, 9:56 am[color=#262626] 
Two thoughts... 1) Frankly, I don't particularly like 1/4in thick brackets but there's lots of kits out there that use them, in this application it's so small that it probably wouldn't have been a problem. 2) Why not just cut it from 3/8in plate, notch it and weld in a nut at the top? If you could get the plate drawn up in Autocad or Solidworks you could have them CNC laser or waterjet cut then the fabrication process would be (a) grab a plate (b) drum-sand the edge for cleanup if you really wanted to (c) weld in the nut and you're done. 3) You are leaving enough clearance between the bracket and the caliper body to accommodate its movement during use, right?
 
Posted by Daze on April 26, 2011, 12:26 pm, appreciate the input I agree on the 1/4" material and that is why I used angle on both and am doubling up the material with the the connecting plat.  Once I weld all three together I should have a nice thick solid bracket.  As to welding the nut, its a good idea but as a mater of personal preference I don't like welds at connection points where the part will see 10s of 1000s of cycles.  welds can be a little more brittle than the actual steel and can fatigue over time.  its a little different where I am welding the angle to the plate as the welds are a redundancy.  thanks again for your input.
 

 

April 19, 2017 7:14 pm  #2


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

What I don't like about the above setup is having to turn the rotors down to minimum thickness AND having to slightly shave the pads.  This setup is my fall back position if plan A doesn't work.

Plan A is to use the OEM spindles, OEM wheel hubs from the drums, 13" Mustang cobra rotors, and the PBR calipers.  If I can make this work I will have some serious stopping power and the correct spindle setup to get camber close to 0 at ride height.

Here are some pix of what this should look like (found them on the net not my project)

hubs seated in the rotors


calipers and rotors

     Thread Starter
 

April 24, 2017 11:12 am  #3


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

I have an update.  The PBR calipers will not work with the 13" rotors due to the different arc of the rotor, AND will require 17" rims.  Right now I have 16" on the front and 17" on the back.  I think I have a replacement stock spindle coming so here is my plan.

Use stock spindles, wilwood rotors and the PBR calipers to make a front disc break setup.  This will fix my camber issues and allow me change the brakes out this season  I will then order some wilwood calipers that will work with my 13" rotors and design a bracket that attaches them to my 72 spindles.  I will also order two 17" rims for the front of the car to mach the rear.  This will take $$ I don't have right now but should have by next season so I will gather parts and prepare for the 13" cobra/wilwood upgrade next year.  Once I upgrade the brake I will put the OEM spindle, wilwood/ PBR brakes up for sale as I am sure there are a lot of 61-64 galaxie owners out there that would like to replace their LTD II disc for something that will allow for a better alignment.  More to come with pix in the future.

     Thread Starter
 

April 24, 2017 12:58 pm  #4


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

I'm curious about your plans for replacing spindles and brakes and so naturally I have to ask some questions: I apologize in advance...sorry for the questions.
To recap: Best camber achieved is 1 degree positive which is still within factory spec. From previous posts you seem satisfied with the braking you currently have.
Now the questions: Why do you feel you need more braking power? Why are you concerned about the camber? 
I know you are a fabricator/problem solver so is this another project you want to do or are you that unsatisfied with the current set up?
Why not keep everything as is and consider an upper control arm modification. Shortening the upper control arm with reinforcement seems like an interesting solution to address the camber issue?
Anyway, not trying to make suggestions or get in your kitchen about this....I'm just really curious.
Dan

Last edited by dan_6776 (April 24, 2017 1:19 pm)

 

April 24, 2017 2:01 pm  #5


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

dan_6776 wrote:

I apologize in advance...sorry for the questions.

No need to ever apologize for questions, thats why we have the forum

dan_6776 wrote:

To recap: Best camber achieved is 1 degree positive which is still within factory spec.

Fore best results you want camber set at 0º at normal ride height.  When camber is positive the wheels do not grab the road as well but when camber is negative you shorten the life of the tires.  most camber curves go negative as the suspension compresses so by setting it at 0º at normal ride height you get the best compromise between handling and tire life.

dan_6776 wrote:

From previous posts you seem satisfied with the braking you currently have. Now the questions: Why do you feel you need more braking power? Why are you concerned about the camber? 

I am satisfied with my current breaking BUT I am not satisfied with the current alignment specs.  The car handles well but I know it can handle a lot better.  You would be amazed at the difference an alignment can make in the way a car handles. I can turn a Mustang from a sloppy old car to something that is on rails simply by dialing in the alignment.

As far as the break upgrades what I have works fine but in order to get the correct camber I must change the spindles.  Regardless of weather I used the 72 disc spindles or stayed with the LTD spindles the calipers are outdated and the PBR calipers are 10X better, aluminum construction and fully floating. So why not have a premium caliper that will more efficiently work.  The OEM spindles will work with the rotors I have and allow me to mount up the PBR calipers but the the better 72 spindles will not work with the rotors I have for the PBR setup so the only solution I have found to use the 72 spindles is the Cobra upgrade.  I have no doubt the OEM spindles, wilwood rotors, and PBR calipers will work beautifully. The cobra brakes are just because I can,  I have most of the parts, I like the challenge of designing this sort of thing and it gives me an excuse to change my front rims out.

dan_6776 wrote:

Why not keep everything as is and consider an upper control arm modification. Shortening the upper control arm with reinforcement seems like an interesting solution to address the camber issue?

Honestly I don't like that idea.  when I modify I try to build things that are full proof and or fail safe.  if a brake caliper bracket fails I could probably still get the car safely to a stop but if the UCA were to fail there would be major consequences.

dan_6776 wrote:

Anyway, not trying to make suggestions or get in your kitchen about this....I'm just really curious.
Dan

your comments questions and insights are always welcome.

     Thread Starter
 

April 25, 2017 11:42 am  #6


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

dan_6776 wrote:

Why not keep everything as is and consider an upper control arm modification. Shortening the upper control arm with reinforcement seems like an interesting solution to address the camber issue?

I thought of one other issue with doing that.  By adjusting the length of the control arm you are changing the camber curve.  ever wonder why the UCA is always shorter than the LCA?  It is because of the camber curve.  if you had two control arms, the same length and mounted parallel with each other you would have no camber change during suspension travel, but by having the UCA shorter it puts the upper ball joint on a different arch which tilts the spindle in or out as the arches change.

Shortening the UCA would effect this curve.  may make it more aggressive (scrum the tires) or less aggressive (reduction in handling) it may even reverse it depending on where the arch of the upper ball joint is at normal ride height.  with out a lot of math or some computer modeling adjusting the length of control arms is a shot in the dark as to weather or not the final result will be an improvement.
 

     Thread Starter
 

April 25, 2017 1:19 pm  #7


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

I recently read an article about one of Chrysler's Trans Am program suspension guys and the work involved with playing with UCA and LCA length in an effort to maximize handling. What they went through didn't sound at all like fun.

Speaking of making an old mustang handle better, do you have any specs that would work for my '68 Cougar before I take it in for an alignment?

 

April 25, 2017 3:19 pm  #8


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

Understood!
I guess on a more simple level, I was thinking that by shortening the upper control arm slightly, this would allow you to move the upper control arm inward. It would be simulating removing shims and getting you closer to 0 degrees of camber. So I guess the question that would have to be asked: Is it better to leave as is with 1 degree of positive camber or shorten the UCA to get to 0 degrees camber but risk altering some handling characteristics? Which would be the worse of the two evils? They are heavy old cars and not exactly known for sports car like handling...would it really be noticeable? Just asking?
BTW...cutting a little more of my coil springs and lowering the ride height got me to .75 degrees positive camber. Close enough for me. Mine is staying as is.
 

 

April 25, 2017 7:26 pm  #9


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

guitar74 wrote:

Speaking of making an old mustang handle better, do you have any specs that would work for my '68 Cougar before I take it in for an alignment?

I recommend you read my web pages www.dazecars.com under tech articles I have written a ton of information on improving the handling of these cars and everything would apply to your cougar.

as to the specific answer to your question this is the alignment specs I recommend for all of these cars regardless of suspension configuration. Please align to these specs “1967-1970 Mustang, Falcon & Cougar Performance Alignment with or without UCA drop”.  

These specifications are in order of importance.
1.  NO more than .25 degrees difference between driver’s side and passenger’s side.

2. +2.0  to +3.5 degrees caster.  

3.  -.5 to 0 degrees camber.  No positive camber, please.  There is no problem having a slight variation from driver’s side to passenger’s side to account for the crown in the road.

4.    1/16" to 1/8” toe in

If you run into any problems attaining these specs, please call me (your phone number here).

 


dan_6776 wrote:

So I guess the question that would have to be asked: Is it better to leave as is with 1 degree of positive camber or shorten the UCA to get to 0 degrees camber but risk altering some handling characteristics? Which would be the worse of the two evils? 
 

Like I said without doing some computer modeling the odds of making the suspension "better" by shortening the UCA are not good so given the two choices you gave me I would rather have the inferior alignment than the risk of messing up the camber curve.

However I prefer option 3, use the correct spindles so that I can have the alignment specs I want without having to mess with the camber curve.
 

     Thread Starter
 

April 29, 2017 12:13 pm  #10


Re: disc brakes on stock(ish) spindles

I appreciate the specs. I haven't done the uca drop, but probably will when I go to 17 inch wheels. And you're right about alginment making a big difference in handling. I had a camaro that was scary at anything above 60 the front end was so loose. After seeing the weird wear on the front tires, and having to replace them from the super fast wear, had the tire shop align it, and cimmunicated how sloppy it felt at freeway speeds.

Amazing how much better that car felt and responded at ANY speed when I got it back.

 

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